Discussion:
Is this group dead?
(too old to reply)
Joe Mac
2005-01-18 02:31:44 UTC
Permalink
I recall a time when this group was filled with humour, gossip, information,
bickering and bantering and I'd look on a daily basis to see what was
happening in the magic world.

Now, aside from excessive multiple posts from TO's about every future event
they're holding, be it a 2 man pokemon draft to a mega pre-release, there's
bugger all happening.

It's not because Magic is dying because I know it's bigger than it ever has
been, so why is it?

Is it because ppl have moved on and no new ones have taken up the gauntlet?
I have my thoughts on it but I wondered what you guys (assuming you're all
still you there lurking) think

And on a more constructive note, is there anything we can do to turn it
around?



Joe
------
www.cutting-edge-cards.com
------
kev
2005-01-18 08:41:20 UTC
Permalink
probably still quite a few lurkers joe even if its just to find out
where/when the next tourney is.
mind you conversation on the newsgroups has been dying since mtgo came out
and also with the advent of private chatrooms its going much the same way as
IRC went for a while but its all cyclic at the end of the day. IRC is back
on the up with more users.

The other thing is less people travel to events now so less conversation on
the newsgroups most seem to only go to their local event and only their
local event

this by the way is cid and my 10th year of organised tournaments and this
August will be our tenth anniversary so we are hoping that a few older
players may still be lurking out there who may fancy coming along to Donny
once again either for a sealed event or if they have dug out an old deck a
game with a few other like minded people with the same ancient decks.

Kevin
Post by Joe Mac
I recall a time when this group was filled with humour, gossip,
information,
bickering and bantering and I'd look on a daily basis to see what was
happening in the magic world.
Now, aside from excessive multiple posts from TO's about every future event
they're holding, be it a 2 man pokemon draft to a mega pre-release, there's
bugger all happening.
It's not because Magic is dying because I know it's bigger than it ever has
been, so why is it?
Is it because ppl have moved on and no new ones have taken up the gauntlet?
I have my thoughts on it but I wondered what you guys (assuming you're all
still you there lurking) think
And on a more constructive note, is there anything we can do to turn it
around?
Joe
------
www.cutting-edge-cards.com
------
Michael Groves
2005-01-18 09:08:21 UTC
Permalink
I check it most days, but not much happening to post about really, has
been Team PTQ since December, so not much happening premier eventwise.
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Keith Spragg
2005-01-18 10:09:30 UTC
Permalink
I'd say that mostly it's because people don't know about this group -
the people who used to be regulars of this group don't go to many
events any more, and in a 'self-fullfilling-prophecy' kind of way, if
no-one posts on the group, no-one discusses the group, and if no-one
discusses the group, no-one posts any more.

Add this in to the fact that people seem to be a lot less inclined to
discuss actual Magic (while it's uk.games.trading-cards.misc, it's
mainly be hijacked by Magic players) issues on here for the previous
displays of elitism and being shot down for the tiniest things. The
final nail in the coffin (for now at least) is that the current formats
are fairly stagnant, and people don't want to talk about it any more.

So, a combination of factors is slowly killing the group off - I'd say
the best way to get the group back on here is to get some interesting
posts, and then start discussing them at events.

Just don't ask me what is interesting, because I haven't got a clue.
Keith
b***@gmail.com
2005-01-19 16:18:50 UTC
Permalink
I blame the new google groups layout, its ugly
Bryan Connolly
2005-01-19 17:44:01 UTC
Permalink
Last couple of threads I attempted to start went unanswered : ( It is a
quiet time of year though I suppose...
Bryan Connolly
2005-01-27 18:56:40 UTC
Permalink
Last couple of threads I attempted to start went unanswered : ( It is a
quiet time of year though I suppose...
d***@yahoo.co.uk
2005-02-01 15:52:44 UTC
Permalink
Not that I don't appreciate The Games Cllub events as they are
generally well run and the Club is a good ambassador for TCGs.

But I really wish they would start advertising their events like the
place for games.

I am fed up of navigating through their tonnes of Games Club event
adverts on this NG. It's part of the reason that I don't look at this
site much anymore.

Considering they use this site for advertising their events I find it
illogical that they put people like me off reading it.

David
Richard Clyne
2005-02-01 21:02:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@yahoo.co.uk
Not that I don't appreciate The Games Cllub events as they are
generally well run and the Club is a good ambassador for TCGs.
But I really wish they would start advertising their events like the
place for games.
All I do is add the address they post from to my Kill file. Voila! no
more mass postings. The only problem is that I won't see to remove
the entry when Jason changes how he posts. If he does change it
please can someone tell me!
Post by d***@yahoo.co.uk
David
Joe Mac
2005-02-02 15:55:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@yahoo.co.uk
Not that I don't appreciate The Games Cllub events as they are
generally well run and the Club is a good ambassador for TCGs.
But I really wish they would start advertising their events like the
place for games.
I am fed up of navigating through their tonnes of Games Club event
adverts on this NG. It's part of the reason that I don't look at this
site much anymore.
Considering they use this site for advertising their events I find it
illogical that they put people like me off reading it.
David
I didn't want to be the first to say it but I entirely agree. It's spam
plain and simple. Noone else does it on the group and Carl's posts are how
it should be.

As an example, Amongst Jason's weekly spamming of the site he has the
following two posts:

M:TG Champions of Kamigawa Booster Draft - CENTRAL LONDON - Tuesday, 1st
February 2005
M:TG Champions of Kamigawa Booster Draft - CENTRAL LONDON - Monday, 31st
January 2005

and then both ads have EXACTLY THE SAME content, each stating.."

"DATE
Every Monday and Tuesday"

Unnecessary Jason. The newsgroup is quieter these days and your posts just
drown out the rest. If anybody cared to do a "sort" or something on the
last few months just see how many of them are Jason plugging his business
(and that's what it is fellas) A weekly post is fair enough. 15+ is
excessive.

Like Richard I've put him in my "killfile" now.

Joe
Richard Clyne
2005-02-02 18:17:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Mac
[quoted text muted]
I didn't want to be the first to say it but I entirely agree. It's spam
plain and simple. Noone else does it on the group and Carl's posts are how
it should be.
I looked up the charter for what is allowed on the newsgroup in order to
remind myself what is allowed here.
http://www.usenet.org.uk/uk.games.trading-cards.misc.html#uk.games.trading-cards.misc
is a register of the charter (there are the charters for all uk.* groups
there). For those that can't be bothered to look it up, I'll post it:

Charter of uk.games.trading-cards.misc
(Not Moderated)
The group is for the for the discussion of strategy, rules, tournament announcements and other aspects of Collectable Trading Cards in the UK.
Advertising
No advertising for auction, trade or sale is permitted.

Short announcements of new auctions, sales etc. in the sister group uk.games.trading-cards.marketplace are permitted.

Short announcements of forthcoming tournaments, new products etc. are permitted.
Binaries
No binaries


So please keep adverts for tourneys short!

If you don't like the charter there is a procedure for modifying it. The
newsgroup uk.net.news.config is a good place to look for procedures etc.

Richard
j***@hotmail.com
2005-02-03 11:39:24 UTC
Permalink
If it wasn't for the Tournament adverts, this group would be COMPLETELY
dead. Ever since Nobby and KoC quit their slanging matches and went
their seperate ways there has been nothing of interest going on in the
group. I suspect that MTGO has alot to do with it, as I for one no
longer go to Maidenhead on a monday for my fix of limited when I can
just log on in the comfort of my own home and draft or league to my
hearts content.

Whilst I don't entirely like the multiple message format of the tourney
adverts in the group, I think that they could be vastly improved just
by changing the Header to something like this:

AD: Extended PTQ, London, 25th August 2005.

This is simple enough to give a basic run down of what it's
advertising, can be filtered by software by those people who don't want
to receive the ads and is concise enough for a header search.
Obviously full details can then be posted in the message for those of
us who want to get more details.

Lets not turn into a bunch of David Chapmans who feel some primal need
to police the newsgroups.
Joe Mac
2005-02-03 20:10:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@hotmail.com
Lets not turn into a bunch of David Chapmans who feel some primal need
to police the newsgroups.
Yeah? 'oo rattled YOUR cage Molesy eh? EH?

GERCHA!
*bish bosh*
oo's the daddy now? eh?
*blappity blap etc*

I do agree that the likes of constable Chapman were part of the mafia that
did not improve things around here. I enjoyed the bitching matches too,
took apart in some of them also IIRC :) HOWEVER I'd still rather have a few
relevant posts than a shiteload of spam. If every TO did what Jason does
ask yourself what this NG would look like.

Joe
P F J
2005-02-04 01:39:59 UTC
Permalink
the sad fact that people don't seem to realise is that - if these
groups were buzzing with activity then they would be an atractive
place for spammers to advertise and so would have far more adverts in
than is at present.

prehaps someone can answer something thats always confused me

MTG is a trading card game right!! these groups are named with
'trading' in their title right!! 99% of players trade right!! how is
it that a game designed for its component parts to be traded draws
critisism where these components parts are offered for trade!!!!!

really i don't get it. i realise that there's a place for evreything
and all that, but surly a busy group will be bound to draw spam, and
the spam is just an indicator that the group is healthy. we all know
how to kill filter don't we and even if we don't no one 'makes' us
read the spam, so whats the big deal

if you want a more active group post then something interesting

i'm guessing most people just use this to check out up and coming
tourneys now anyway, so ironically the spammed up stuff of which you
refer is the most inmorfative

blah balh blah i must be bored. oh yeah - and netcops got a real live
badge and helmet over on salvation. aprarently he's a legend in his
own yfronts, so i guess he won't be tring to chase off the waifs and
strays in ngs anymore

usenet isn't moderated so we can say what we want which is surly
bettter than the moderated crap but then... if no ones got anything to
say.....

On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 20:10:24 GMT, "Joe Mac"
Post by Joe Mac
Post by j***@hotmail.com
Lets not turn into a bunch of David Chapmans who feel some primal need
to police the newsgroups.
Yeah? 'oo rattled YOUR cage Molesy eh? EH?
GERCHA!
*bish bosh*
oo's the daddy now? eh?
*blappity blap etc*
I do agree that the likes of constable Chapman were part of the mafia that
did not improve things around here. I enjoyed the bitching matches too,
took apart in some of them also IIRC :) HOWEVER I'd still rather have a few
relevant posts than a shiteload of spam. If every TO did what Jason does
ask yourself what this NG would look like.
Joe
Joe Mac
2005-02-04 20:01:29 UTC
Permalink
To answer your points

1) You want to discuss trades and business no problems! They've even given
us a special place to do it so that the general chat doesn't become a free
for all. It's uk.games.trading-cards.marketplace. Use it.

2) Spam is not an indicator that a group is healthy. Or to put it another
way, a healthy group that gets spammed quickly becomes unhealthy as people
stop going to it. If you went to a pub and constantly had spivs in your
face trying to flog you paper roses for your loved one, rattling collection
tins at you and selling you mobiles that fell off the back of a lorry you'd
go to the pub over the road that was free of such nonsense wouldn't you.

3) You're right it's not a big deal, just irritating and as I said I've
already killfiled Jason because of it. I was just agreeing with someone
elses post about it.

4) You say....."i'm guessing most people just use this to check out up and
coming tourneys now anyway, so ironically the spammed up stuff of which you
refer is the most inmorfative" You make a guess and then state a fact based
on it. On what do you base this guess? Nothing as far as I can see.

hey we're chatting again! Anyone else we want to slag off?

:O)
Post by P F J
prehaps someone can answer something thats always confused me
MTG is a trading card game right!! these groups are named with
'trading' in their title right!! 99% of players trade right!! how is
it that a game designed for its component parts to be traded draws
critisism where these components parts are offered for trade!!!!!
really i don't get it. i realise that there's a place for evreything
and all that, but surly a busy group will be bound to draw spam, and
the spam is just an indicator that the group is healthy. we all know
how to kill filter don't we and even if we don't no one 'makes' us
read the spam, so whats the big deal
if you want a more active group post then something interesting
i'm guessing most people just use this to check out up and coming
tourneys now anyway, so ironically the spammed up stuff of which you
refer is the most inmorfative
blah balh blah i must be bored. oh yeah - and netcops got a real live
badge and helmet over on salvation. aprarently he's a legend in his
own yfronts, so i guess he won't be tring to chase off the waifs and
strays in ngs anymore
usenet isn't moderated so we can say what we want which is surly
bettter than the moderated crap but then... if no ones got anything to
say.....
On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 20:10:24 GMT, "Joe Mac"
Post by Joe Mac
Post by j***@hotmail.com
Lets not turn into a bunch of David Chapmans who feel some primal need
to police the newsgroups.
Yeah? 'oo rattled YOUR cage Molesy eh? EH?
GERCHA!
*bish bosh*
oo's the daddy now? eh?
*blappity blap etc*
I do agree that the likes of constable Chapman were part of the mafia that
did not improve things around here. I enjoyed the bitching matches too,
took apart in some of them also IIRC :) HOWEVER I'd still rather have a few
relevant posts than a shiteload of spam. If every TO did what Jason does
ask yourself what this NG would look like.
Joe
P F J
2005-02-05 03:51:35 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 20:01:29 GMT, "Joe Mac"
Post by Joe Mac
1) You want to discuss trades and business no problems! They've even given
us a special place to do it so that the general chat doesn't become a free
for all. It's uk.games.trading-cards.marketplace. Use it.
well i don't want to particuarly. however you have demonstated a
problem. the second that people are told to go away and post else
where, don't be surprised when they do. but don't expect them to
necessarily go where you tell them to either.
Post by Joe Mac
2) Spam is not an indicator that a group is healthy. Or to put it another
way, a healthy group that gets spammed quickly becomes unhealthy as people
stop going to it. If you went to a pub and constantly had spivs in your
face trying to flog you paper roses for your loved one, rattling collection
tins at you and selling you mobiles that fell off the back of a lorry you'd
go to the pub over the road that was free of such nonsense wouldn't you.
that doesn't really work though does it. try this one - there are two
pubs. pub A is a really busy, packed, thrieving pub with girls so
pissed they're dancing topless on tables, loud pounding music that can
be heard half a mile away and glasses smashing through windows out on
to the street. Pub B, across the street has got two regulars, about
five other customers a pub cat and a pub dog. its red poppy day again
and i've agree to rattle a tin and sell some flowers. wanna make a
guess which pub i'm going to go into to sell some poppys. wanna make
a guess which pub i'm going to go into to chill out after having sold
them all. but then - i don't suppose poppies really works either
because people aren't divided on it - try replacing poppies with
hard/soft drugs.
Post by Joe Mac
3) You're right it's not a big deal, just irritating and as I said I've
already killfiled Jason because of it. I was just agreeing with someone
elses post about it.
some people find top posting irritating too. but hey, i did it, and
so did you - thats probubly because it's not a big deal either.
normally i wouldn't bother on this, but again it demonstates a problem
where the second i start telling you how you should be posting, i
wouldn't be surprised if you can't be bothered to post in case the
content of your post's being ignored over petty issues like splelling
etc.
Post by Joe Mac
4) You say....."i'm guessing most people just use this to check out up and
coming tourneys now anyway, so ironically the spammed up stuff of which you
refer is the most inmorfative" You make a guess and then state a fact based
on it. On what do you base this guess? Nothing as far as I can see.
well.. you started this thread called 'is this group dead'. i mearly
offered some opinions, none of which i would claim to be *fact* that
is so irrefutable that they cannot ever be challenged. they are just
opinions after all. and the phrase 'the sad fact is....' is a phrase
thats all, just a phrase. however since i guess you are of the
opinion that this group has either died, is dying, or will start to
die soon etc then i guess that is partly on what i based my guess -
since you asked

it seems obvious to me that a group, if busy, will attract new posters
as well as retaining the posters it already has. if you take the new
posters for a sec and think about how many times they are likely to
break netequet rules, if they're slagged off every time they do it
then the group ends up a bickering ground with very little actual
interesting discussion going on. now i'm not trying to suggest that
bickering is a problem, it just depends what's being bickered about.
take top posting, which often gets thrown at newbies even though the
same people who nitpik up on it will occasionally do it themselves
when it suits them. my point being is that new posters turn into old
posters except when new posters leave and then they just become
non-posters instead. and the group ends up with fewer new posters to
replace the older ones who will eventually leave in due course
probubly coz their off to spend more time in pub A to sell some hard
drugs and buy a mobile phone which is conceivably now open 24hr,
unlike pub B
Joe Mac
2005-02-05 10:54:59 UTC
Permalink
I think it does really work though Pete and you're being rather
disingenuous. This group is hardly "girls dancing topless" is it now.
Saying that spammers/poppy sellers prefer coming to busy pubs/NG's is
non-sequitur for justifying their presence in those places. All you're
saying is that busy busy NG's are good targets for spammers.

None of the rest of your arguments follow either I'm afraid (including
bitching about the evils of top-posting) and I can't be assed to refute them
in public so I would refer us all to this link..

Loading Image...

ps you win the argument

:-)

Joe
Post by P F J
On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 20:01:29 GMT, "Joe Mac"
Post by Joe Mac
1) You want to discuss trades and business no problems! They've even given
us a special place to do it so that the general chat doesn't become a free
for all. It's uk.games.trading-cards.marketplace. Use it.
well i don't want to particuarly. however you have demonstated a
problem. the second that people are told to go away and post else
where, don't be surprised when they do. but don't expect them to
necessarily go where you tell them to either.
Post by Joe Mac
2) Spam is not an indicator that a group is healthy. Or to put it another
way, a healthy group that gets spammed quickly becomes unhealthy as people
stop going to it. If you went to a pub and constantly had spivs in your
face trying to flog you paper roses for your loved one, rattling collection
tins at you and selling you mobiles that fell off the back of a lorry you'd
go to the pub over the road that was free of such nonsense wouldn't you.
that doesn't really work though does it. try this one - there are two
pubs. pub A is a really busy, packed, thrieving pub with girls so
pissed they're dancing topless on tables, loud pounding music that can
be heard half a mile away and glasses smashing through windows out on
to the street. Pub B, across the street has got two regulars, about
five other customers a pub cat and a pub dog. its red poppy day again
and i've agree to rattle a tin and sell some flowers. wanna make a
guess which pub i'm going to go into to sell some poppys. wanna make
a guess which pub i'm going to go into to chill out after having sold
them all. but then - i don't suppose poppies really works either
because people aren't divided on it - try replacing poppies with
hard/soft drugs.
Post by Joe Mac
3) You're right it's not a big deal, just irritating and as I said I've
already killfiled Jason because of it. I was just agreeing with someone
elses post about it.
some people find top posting irritating too. but hey, i did it, and
so did you - thats probubly because it's not a big deal either.
normally i wouldn't bother on this, but again it demonstates a problem
where the second i start telling you how you should be posting, i
wouldn't be surprised if you can't be bothered to post in case the
content of your post's being ignored over petty issues like splelling
etc.
Post by Joe Mac
4) You say....."i'm guessing most people just use this to check out up and
coming tourneys now anyway, so ironically the spammed up stuff of which you
refer is the most inmorfative" You make a guess and then state a fact based
on it. On what do you base this guess? Nothing as far as I can see.
well.. you started this thread called 'is this group dead'. i mearly
offered some opinions, none of which i would claim to be *fact* that
is so irrefutable that they cannot ever be challenged. they are just
opinions after all. and the phrase 'the sad fact is....' is a phrase
thats all, just a phrase. however since i guess you are of the
opinion that this group has either died, is dying, or will start to
die soon etc then i guess that is partly on what i based my guess -
since you asked
it seems obvious to me that a group, if busy, will attract new posters
as well as retaining the posters it already has. if you take the new
posters for a sec and think about how many times they are likely to
break netequet rules, if they're slagged off every time they do it
then the group ends up a bickering ground with very little actual
interesting discussion going on. now i'm not trying to suggest that
bickering is a problem, it just depends what's being bickered about.
take top posting, which often gets thrown at newbies even though the
same people who nitpik up on it will occasionally do it themselves
when it suits them. my point being is that new posters turn into old
posters except when new posters leave and then they just become
non-posters instead. and the group ends up with fewer new posters to
replace the older ones who will eventually leave in due course
probubly coz their off to spend more time in pub A to sell some hard
drugs and buy a mobile phone which is conceivably now open 24hr,
unlike pub B
P F J
2005-02-06 01:53:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Mac
I think it does really work though Pete and you're being rather
disingenuous. This group is hardly "girls dancing topless" is it now.
Saying that spammers/poppy sellers prefer coming to busy pubs/NG's is
non-sequitur for justifying their presence in those places.
but their presence is justified in those places whether you, i or the
dog in pub B like it or not

you would be hard pushed to come to a different conclusion if i asked
you how you justified the link to your online shop in your sig
Post by Joe Mac
All you're saying is that busy busy NG's are good targets for spammers.
i'm also showing a willingness to discuss something as a responce to
your request, in an attempted to have anything other than just spam
here.
j***@talk21.com
2005-02-08 10:16:44 UTC
Permalink
Joe

Do you really have this much time on your hands? Or does your shop get
any customers?

I am one the occasional posters, who checks the NG to see whats
happening and who is slagging of whom this week, but the NG has been a
lot quieter recently and getting worse! Therefore, I check less often.

I do agree with you about The Games Club adverts, but he does fill up
the NG with something to read!!

Jason

P F J
2005-02-08 06:13:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Clyne
Post by Joe Mac
[quoted text muted]
I didn't want to be the first to say it but I entirely agree. It's spam
plain and simple. Noone else does it on the group and Carl's posts are how
it should be.
I looked up the charter for what is allowed on the newsgroup in order to
remind myself what is allowed here.
http://www.usenet.org.uk/uk.games.trading-cards.misc.html#uk.games.trading-cards.misc
is a register of the charter (there are the charters for all uk.* groups
Charter of uk.games.trading-cards.misc
(Not Moderated)
The group is for the for the discussion of strategy, rules, tournament announcements and other aspects of Collectable Trading Cards in the UK.
Advertising
No advertising for auction, trade or sale is permitted.
Short announcements of new auctions, sales etc. in the sister group uk.games.trading-cards.marketplace are permitted.
Short announcements of forthcoming tournaments, new products etc. are permitted.
Binaries
No binaries
So please keep adverts for tourneys short!
If you don't like the charter there is a procedure for modifying it. The
newsgroup uk.net.news.config is a good place to look for procedures etc.
here's an idea that attempts to turn an otherwise useless charter into
a tool for tackling the 'spam' issue

it's designed primarly to work for a variety of points of view on
'spam' but will surly miss even more. it also takes liberties with the
notion that anything's possible. neway here goes-

invite all with ads to place in here to put their ad in the charter

here's how it might work

1. the chater isn't here

ad isn't phsicaly here satisfying the 'we don't like spam here' types
while accomodating spam that gets here

wouldn't matter what size it ended up

2. it requires effort to change

legitismising the presence of the spam
legitismising any action taken (see 3.)

3. it could be used to rate/reward/slate/other the shop/advertiser

post - 'come to my shop theres tons of great stuff - great stuff dot
com'
reply - 'ok it's gone in the charter'
on reading the charter - 'great stuff dom com - don't buy off him,
he's inconsiderate to this group - some at dude dot com - 8/2/05'

could end up being a good source of one liners that people would
actually want to read, making it usefull to advertisers as they know
it will get read

4. no one is required/forced to read it

takes it out of peoples faces

5. failure to use it provides a place to do 3.

important to some

6. it's useage is entirly optional

who will know the difference

7. it gives all n sundry an oppertunity to destoy a charter for fun

thus shifting the 'spammers have desroyed the group' to... 'we have
destroyed our charter'

net outcome if it didn't work

8. it requires effort/cordination/co-operation to
implement/host/maintain/update

logistally problematic to set up so won't happen unless group comes
together to make it happen

thats about it - make of it what you will!!

well if this type of thing is what's required to solve 'spam' i can
see why no one's solved it yet and probubly never will
P F J



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